Test Project WSAD 2017

Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Gareth Evans UK » 09 Jul 2017, 06:07

Dear Pat and Fellow Experts,

I would like to ask a question regarding the test project and its current validity against our Technical Description. I fully agree and support the proposal of Module 1,2 and 3 but I do not think that Module 4 (The Table) fits within the TEST PROJECT DESIGN REQUIREMENTS as stated within our TD.

Section 5.3 states the following:

The Test Project must reflect the typical work carried out by a Carpenter.

It should form a complete timber structure when all the modules are joined together; for example, a Base structure, a wall structure, and a roof.

Other structures may be included such as:
• Stairs/steps;
• Guard rails;
• Trims;
• Decking;
• Cladding.

I have concerns that Module 4 of the current Test Project Proposal does not fall within the boundaries set by our TD as amended by Experts in WSSP and validated by WSI.
Module 4 does not create a complete timber structure when all the modules are joined together (see bold text above).
I understand that Experts have voted but has the consideration been made by WSI as to the validity of the final module against the TD?

I thank you in advance for your responses.

Gareth Evans UK
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Allen Hill AU » 10 Jul 2017, 08:22

Dear Fellow Experts and Pat,
I also agree with Gareth, that module 4 contradicts the technical description. This module is more related to the Cabinetmaking skill. Could we seek advise about this module.
Allen
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Saburo Wada JP » 10 Jul 2017, 09:27

Hi all

I also do not think that Module 4 (The Table) fits within the TEST PROJECT DESIGN REQUIREMENTS as stated within our TD.

Best regards
Saburo
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Adrian Wenger CH » 10 Jul 2017, 14:13

Hi Gareth and all other experts

As the designer i feel responsible to say a few words.
I generally understand your concerns, i don’t understand the time you coming up with because everyone have seen it for the Voting. And what’s more reflective as a voting?
i know, module 4 is a very very difficult one. So i was also a little surprised by myself!

To the points in the TD are quite soft:
What does «typical Work by a carpenter» means? We always had discussions and probably will always have them, because our trade is so different. Not just in the World, even in my country. And that’s one of the things i love, every day is different from the last. But im agree with you the table itself is for sure not the daily business of the Carpenter. but the way to get the tabe in my opinion it is. Read and interpreting the drawing what the customer wants, figure out Dimensions and angels, solving problems, cutting Wood and Joints and Assembling them.
I’m just wondering witch cabinetmaker could do the table…..
About 6 month ago i asked for some picture about carpentry in your country’s. I got just one answer from Denmark. Thanks Alex by the way.

Second one: it SHOULD be complete timber structure.
My idea for that independent Module was a very practical one. To have a Independent last module to mark and if not every candidate are able to finish the test project (module 4) nobody from outside can see it. If for example a dormer is missing on some projects, everyone sees there is something missing.
And not to forget it’s reusable (for the farewell party) :)

So I would suggest let the external designer do the Changes. Pat should give him the information about the discussion. He has to keep the time and difficulty in mind. If he does change the Module 4 in a dormer or something else it’s absolutely fine. Maybe he can compensate it with a bigger change of the hole project and not just making it easier!
Pat i would also sent him all the other Proposals to give some ideas if not already done.
Gareth i really appreciate your very reliable work at worldskills, maybe you could do a proposal next time too.

If it helps to have a 3d CAD file its not a problem! I could provide .3d (Cadwork), 3d DXF, .sat, .stl, .ifc and probably some other too. I’m abroad till Friday and could do it then if wished?

Best regard adrian
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Adrian Wenger CH » 10 Jul 2017, 14:14

Hi Gareth and all other experts

As the designer i feel responsible to say a few words.
I generally understand your concerns, i don’t understand the time you coming up with because everyone have seen it for the Voting. And what’s more reflective as a voting?
i know, module 4 is a very very difficult one. So i was also a little surprised by myself!

To the points in the TD are quite soft:
What does «typical Work by a carpenter» means? We always had discussions and probably will always have them, because our trade is so different. Not just in the World, even in my country. And that’s one of the things i love, every day is different from the last. But im agree with you the table itself is for sure not the daily business of the Carpenter. but the way to get the tabe in my opinion it is. Read and interpreting the drawing what the customer wants, figure out Dimensions and angels, solving problems, cutting Wood and Joints and Assembling them.
I’m just wondering witch cabinetmaker could do the table…..
About 6 month ago i asked for some picture about carpentry in your country’s. I got just one answer from Denmark. Thanks Alex by the way.

Second one: it SHOULD be complete timber structure.
My idea for that independent Module was a very practical one. To have a Independent last module to mark and if not every candidate are able to finish the test project (module 4) nobody from outside can see it. If for example a dormer is missing on some projects, everyone sees there is something missing.
And not to forget it’s reusable (for the farewell party) :)

So I would suggest let the external designer do the Changes. Pat should give him the information about the discussion. He has to keep the time and difficulty in mind. If he does change the Module 4 in a dormer or something else it’s absolutely fine. Maybe he can compensate it with a bigger change of the hole project and not just making it easier!
Pat i would also sent him all the other Proposals to give some ideas if not already done.
Gareth i really appreciate your very reliable work at worldskills, maybe you could do a proposal next time too.

If it helps to have a 3d CAD file its not a problem! I could provide .3d (Cadwork), 3d DXF, .sat, .stl, .ifc and probably some other too. I’m abroad till Friday and could do it then if wished?

Best regard adrian
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Adrian Wenger CH » 10 Jul 2017, 14:15

Hi Gareth and all other experts

As the designer i feel responsible to say a few words.
I generally understand your concerns, i don’t understand the time you coming up with because everyone have seen it for the Voting. And what’s more reflective as a voting?
i know, module 4 is a very very difficult one. So i was also a little surprised by myself!

To the points in the TD are quite soft:
What does «typical Work by a carpenter» means? We always had discussions and probably will always have them, because our trade is so different. Not just in the World, even in my country. And that’s one of the things i love, every day is different from the last. But im agree with you the table itself is for sure not the daily business of the Carpenter. but the way to get the tabe in my opinion it is. Read and interpreting the drawing what the customer wants, figure out Dimensions and angels, solving problems, cutting Wood and Joints and Assembling them.
I’m just wondering witch cabinetmaker could do the table…..
About 6 month ago i asked for some picture about carpentry in your country’s. I got just one answer from Denmark. Thanks Alex by the way.

Second one: it SHOULD be complete timber structure.
My idea for that independent Module was a very practical one. To have a Independent last module to mark and if not every candidate are able to finish the test project (module 4) nobody from outside can see it. If for example a dormer is missing on some projects, everyone sees there is something missing.
And not to forget it’s reusable (for the farewell party) :)

So I would suggest let the external designer do the Changes. Pat should give him the information about the discussion. He has to keep the time and difficulty in mind. If he does change the Module 4 in a dormer or something else it’s absolutely fine. Maybe he can compensate it with a bigger change of the hole project and not just making it easier!
Pat i would also sent him all the other Proposals to give some ideas if not already done.
Gareth i really appreciate your very reliable work at worldskills, maybe you could do a proposal next time too.

If it helps to have a 3d CAD file its not a problem! I could provide .3d (Cadwork), 3d DXF, .sat, .stl, .ifc and probably some other too. I’m abroad till Friday and could do it then if wished?

Best regard adrian
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Roland Bernardi DE » 10 Jul 2017, 15:14

Dear Experts and Pat,
I have to say that I can not agree with your opinion. The Modul 4 fits in the Test Project Design Requirements as well as Modul 1 to 3. Also the Modul was clearly presented while the voting and nevertheless the experts decided to chose this Modul. Then, the substruction is definetly the work of a carpenter and not the work of the joinery. If the tabletop is a impediment, it wouldn't be a problem to ask the workshop manager to prepare the tabletop befor the contest. The work with a jigsaw should be a known work for a carpenter and it is possible to build the tabletop out of boards what makes it also the work of a carpenter. The table would be the same work with boards like the seat group or the floor. Additionally, the substruction of the table would be also a optical attraction to the visitors of the contest.

Best regards.
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Gareth Evans UK » 10 Jul 2017, 15:28

Good Afternoon Adrian,

Many Thanks for your kind reply. I do appreciate all comments. It was a question that I had thought of when reviewing the TD against our proposed competition in WSAD. As your aware this is my first Competition as a (Full) Expert and was undertaking a review of this as part of my preparations.

I hope you do not mind me saying that I feel that the TD may need reviewing at/after WSAD. These issues would be removed if the TD allowed the competition to do so. This isn't the only issue we have had with the TD and test project development at this current competition.

I'm happy with the or a similar project and have stated so in my first forum post but I suppose it is the TD that needs reviewing.

I am more than happy to support with this task in WSAD.

I believe that discussion on the reasons of my non-submission of a test project is not a forum priority but I am happy to discuss over email with you directly. I do believe that I am not the only one not to though.

Thanks Adrian and look forward to future communication.

Gareth
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Balazs Major HU » 10 Jul 2017, 21:45

Dear Adrian,

I would like to ask for that 3D/ AutoCAD file, which you offered, if it is possible.

Thank you very much,
Balázs
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Tel.: +36702702633 (HUN); +4917681882782 (DE)
E-mail: major.balazs89@gmail.com
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Pat Phillips WS » 10 Jul 2017, 23:32

Hi all,
Thank you for your comments regarding module 4.

Here are my comments:

This discussion is too late; it should have taken place before the project was voted in, at this time the project can only be changed by the external designer. The project was voted in by a large majority and everyone had access to detailed drawings of all the modules.

The modules do form a complete structure with the table (mod 4) complimenting the seating. It would be possible to fix it in a specific location if necessary. The TD stated that other structures may be used and gives some examples.

It would be very unfair and undemocratic to change any aspects of the project now because all the competitors have been practicing it since May 16th.

The TD MUST be reviewed after each competition and this discussion highlights the importance of everyone getting involved in this review.

This discussion also shows the importance of experts submitting a test project to give us a broader selection of projects over more countries. I would encourage you to take some example drawings from your home competitions to Abu Dhabi to inspire our discussions.

Best regards
Pat
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Gareth Evans UK » 11 Jul 2017, 04:58

Hi Pat and all,

I take all points on board and agree it's too late. In my first post I made reference to this and have not asked for the task to be changed just questioning it in relation to the TD. There is a very clear difference.

I do though still feel the TD is where the fault lies. One persons interpretation of a Complete Timber Structure must not be. This must clearly defined.

This, along with the list of possible additional tasks listed could be reviewed. This text does not contain the word example and such must be treated similar to the above.

I don't believe that these posts relate to test project submission and will not comment on this but I say again, I am not commenting to remove or replace Module 4. I am commenting to ensure we can have the ability and a document that allows us to undertake such new and innovative projects in the future without the same discussion or questioning.

I hope you see my points as valid.

Gareth Evans UK
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Sam Dean NZ » 11 Jul 2017, 07:10

Evening Pat , Adrian, Gareth and all
I realize the horse may have already bolted, I thought I had submitted a post this morning, it was via my phone and I didn't have my glasses on so can't have hit "submit" with sufficient accuracy.
I voted for Adrian's proposal
I liked the practicality of his solution to the number of unfinished projects in Sao Paulo.... However on reflection, and with referral to the TD I agree that it is beyond the scope prescribed. We are not judging joiners or cabinet makers, those are other competitions.
As I am now posting this after Pat's reply it seems a change is unlikely. I would like to suggest that if at all possible facilities be arranged at Abu Dhabi so that when we are discussing TD, and IL changes it is not while the site is being dismantled around us.
Cheers
Sam
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Adrian Wenger CH » 14 Jul 2017, 05:51

Hi all
Attached the 3d Drawing. The .html file you can open without CAD (just Webbrowser).


best regard adrian
Attachments
Proposal M4.zip
(2.76 MiB) Downloaded 33 times
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Volha Bialotskaya BY » 15 Jul 2017, 05:37

Dear Fellow Experts!
I am sorry))) but can anybody send me a sample of a Test Project?
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Re: Test Project WSAD 2017

Postby Adrian Wenger CH » 15 Jul 2017, 06:48

Hello
Past test projects are in the "member area" under "Competition documentation".
but seems you are in the wrong forum. next time please in your trade.
regards adrian
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